Jesus said it: ".....because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, 'By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see." Matthew 13.13,14
They appear to try. Look at John 5.39: "You are searching the scriptures, because you think by means of them you will have everlasting life and these are the very ones that bear witness about me."
Paul put it this way in 2Thess.2.9-12 " But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan+ with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders*+ 10 and every unrighteous deception+ for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,+ 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
Romans 3.14:" But their mental powers were dulled."
One such one that has escaped Trinitarianism a Professor who taught at Masters University and ended up resigning because of the doctrine wrote:
"Trinitarians are victims of a kind of a kind of cult-ish persuasion, where once someone has been thoroughly indoctrinated into a system of theology, they are unable to read Scripture and ascertain it's true historical meaning, but are bound to see in it's pages, only the theology into which they were indoctrinated.
It's like in Romans 11.8 Paul speaks of these ones: just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep,+ eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear, down to this very day.
How would you explain Hebrews 13:8 to a person who believes Jesus is God?
ReplyDelete"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."
Many will say this proves Jesus has always been eternal therefore he is God.
First of all I would have to ask, what do you mean by God? After all I do not espouse that Jesus in some sense is theos or god. John 1.1, John 10.34. Really, the text you quoted says nothing about an eternal, past. Yesterday carries with it a point in time. Simply put Jesus as, Son of God alone shows a filial relationship and a beginning. See Col 1.15 Heb.1.6
DeleteMany Trinitarians and some who believe Jesus is the Father(they point to Isaiah 9:6) says Hebrews 13:8 shows eternity for Jesus. Meaning he always was, is, and will be kinda similar to Revelation 1:8. This means Jesus had no beginning and could not be the literal firstborn of God.
ReplyDeleteSimply put Jesus is described as firstborn Col.15,Hebrews1.6. The first of Gods generative power.Deut.21.17. I really don't know where you are headed. Also Revelation 3.14.He is not the Father. it is true Is.9.6 describes him as the Eternal Father but in this case he is father in a different sense. See John 8.38-43 where a dialog between Jesus and Religious leaders speaks of 3 fathers, Abraham, God, and the Devil. So you must consider context and meanings of words within that text.
DeleteThe bible is clear. 'Ho pater' refers to God. Not God the Trinity nor one part of a consubstantial unity. Not Jesus. The Father is Jesus' God. John 17.1-3. Jesus spoke of him as "The only true God." ton monon althenon theon. Paul speaks of the Father as,'one God the Father'. And Jesus as one Lord. 1 Cor.8.6. I hope this helps.
ReplyDeleteBy the way I know of no Trinitarians that speak of Jesus being the Father. Sabellianism or Oneness theology camp maybe. The scriptures do not describe Ho Theos this way nor do they describe God as a Trinity. That came much later. Tying in Hebrews 13 and Isa, 9.6 and Rev 1.8 is a stretch. But I've seen worse. To recap. Hebrews speak nothing about eternality of Jesus in the past tense. The Isa. scripture does not prove Jesus as the Almighty God nor in some twisted way as the Father. And the Revelation text is speaking of God.
ReplyDelete